Love Marriage - Red & White Hats
A conversation with depth and worth studying @ www.meebo.com (names have been changed)
[23:31] anon: what are you up to?
[23:32] knatchwa: Having an interesting conversation about stepping outside of tradition and against rules that have been to long preached and talked about ... that may of been appropriate in days before but are no longer ...
[23:33] knatchwa: valid in the society we live in today ... in a society where there needs to be different thoughts and new views to take things to a level not seen before because to long have old ideals been drilled into our skulls.
[23:36] anon: Well while I'll agree new thought is can be great, not all new thought is great, so too, not all old ideas are crap.
[23:37] knatchwa: Many are flawed and no longer appropriate to here and now.
[23:39] knatchwa: Well lets look at that though - which things of the past do you think are appropriate to today?
[23:39] anon: perhaps, but the here and now could definitely benefit from some of the ideas of yesterday.
[23:39] anon: Which would you say are not?
[23:40] knatchwa: Well you bring the point I am curious about your views.
[23:40] anon: ah, yes but the conversation seems more important to you, so it is more suitable for you to lead.
[23:41] knatchwa: The idea of marriage
[23:41] knatchwa: Of working your life away giving it to a company
[23:42] anon: well let us choose one
[23:43] anon: since we are more or less agreed on the company idea lets talk on marriage, what of it do you have disagreements with?
[23:45] knatchwa: That to many follow that idea limit their vision and instead focus on being the mother of the 50s
[23:45] knatchwa: Not to mention my aunt - how she became someone different after children and years of marriage.
[23:45] anon: so are we talking marriage or motherhood?
[23:46] knatchwa: Where here actual personality type finally came out and shortly thereafter she already had a firm hold on the family assets. [23:46] knatchwa: Well the view is that with marriage usually comes motherhood.
[23:47] anon: in this day and age the two are sadly not mutually exclusive
[23:48] knatchwa: No in this day and age - for those who Have known coming out of Universities they are more then happy to just have a long term relationship as boyfriend and girlfriend
[23:48] anon: so are the frustrations you are having with an idea or a person?
[23:48] knatchwa: the idea that you are supposed to get married and follow the same route others have gone before you.
[23:49] knatchwa: and as such expected to result the same
[23:50] anon: so were are back to marriage is it, what precisely do you think is the problem with it?
[23:50] knatchwa: That to many end up in bad situations because of it.
[23:51] anon: as in committed to someone they do not love?
[23:53] knatchwa: Yeah or without a way to step out and away if things become serious, domestic abuse, limiting of vision transference of personalities, people being destroyed and then following into a deep depression if they finally get out but cannot get the energy together to move forward instead live the rest of their years alone.
[23:53] knatchwa: Because the populous tells them they are bad people because the marriage did not work out.
[23:54] knatchwa: To give up on personal dreams because their partner did not agree with it, to stop moving forward because they are told they should be happy where they are.
[23:55] anon: ah
[23:56] knatchwa: To live for the other instead of live for themselves.
[23:57] anon: as i see it, too many people do not know who they are marrying, that they commit to the wrong person and blame the act of commitment itself seems, well i can't think of a proper word for it
[23:59] knatchwa: entrapment perhaps is a good word.
[00:01] anon: one of the greatest problems this day in age is that we are not taught how to have relationships, more specifically the pace at which relationships should progress many of the 60% of divorces i believe should have never been marriages, but we are told that it is normal to jump into bed with anyone we damn well please
[00:07] knatchwa: Good Point - And how true it is.
[00:07] knatchwa: Well that and a lack of awareness of preventative measures.
[00:08] knatchwa: But why do you think that is? Considering what organizations have influence ...
[00:09] knatchwa: of controlling people by fear, by things that are not understood - trying to say they are the only one who knows the truth ... [00:10] knatchwa: and that we the people should listen and follow or fear retribution of something that may not even exist.
[00:10] anon: in a world with logical human beings perhaps it would work, but we are not merely logical but emotional, and there's a hell of a lot of baggage that indiscriminate sex leaves in its wake, there's a need for comfort and for love and the assurance that it will be there in good times and bad, and of course we can't leave out jealousy and the occasional psychotic rage that sometimes follows.
[00:12] anon: well now we get into religion, which although it is the origin of marriage not really necessarily related to the importance its relevance to this day in age.
[00:14] knatchwa: Ok it was a tangent but it did relate appropriately. The idea of marriage has long been spoke about, but that same selective ignorance you alluded to in getting into to bed with "whoever we damn well please" relates back to a lack of awareness.
[00:16] anon: ok, but elaborate, an awareness of what? Contraception?
[00:18] knatchwa: Contraception yes - or the possible consequences of jumping into bed with whomever we damn well please. Or the flawed ideas that have long been spoken as if they are fact and the only way to go.
[00:18] anon: ok flawed ideas, specifically which?
[00:19] knatchwa: that you supposed to apparently go through the steps, a relationship to an engagement to marriage to bring grandchildren into the world.
[00:20] knatchwa: To think there is only one in the world for you, but this supposed one how well do you really know them. Or what they are playing at ...
[00:21] knatchwa: the false idea of fate - of not having any choice, as if your entire path has already been laid before you and no matter which direction you go you end up where fate supposedly put you.
[00:22] knatchwa: Meaning the the first girl you go out with must be the right one ... and setting that seed in your mind, then doing what you can to make it fact. Instead of putting on a white hat and looking at it objectively.
[00:26] knatchwa: Meebo was tripping out and disconnected for a moment for some reason.
[00:29] anon: ah, the true issue I'm guessing, the whole there's only one person in the world for you. Well ya, of course that bullshit... for some people. But here are those who do find someone to love for the entire lives and who could really argue that that person wasn't the one. Of course there may have been another, more beautiful, more intelligent, more funny etc. But here's a couple of things to consider, that would be a good reason to prolong the relationship before marriage and sex for that matter cause that kind of clouds your judgment as to the true characteristics of that person, and once you decided to commit to someone it would be damaging to your relationship to wonder if there was someone better out there for you.
[00:29] anon: Of course you might ask
[00:30] anon: what if i meet someone better once i'm married
[00:30] anon: hmmm
[00:32] knatchwa: Of course the pat answer to that - is you should not be looking if you are already married, even if it was a red hat decision not a white hat decision.
[00:32] anon: this is excluding abusive relationships, that is a whole other matter. An Entirely Different Subject Yes, But One To Consider.
[00:33] anon: okay explain this red hat white hat business, i kind of get but i want to be on the same page
[00:34] knatchwa: Referencing Edward De Bono - Six Thinking Hats as found @ http://www.stevenaitchison.co.uk/blog/2009/09/27/100-ways-to-develop-your-mind/
[00:35] anon: don't really care to read it just summarize
[00:35] anon: red passion?
[00:35] anon: white logic?
[00:35] knatchwa: Speaking to how different situations have a different idea, white being objective, and fact based while red is Emotions Based and should be the second hat you put on. It's the idea by changing hats you change your thought process.
[00:36] knatchwa: To first look at something - only the facts = White Hat
[00:36] knatchwa: Emotions in Thinking = Red Hat
[00:37] anon: well i think that with something like marriage I'd consider looking at a prospective mate with all the hats at my disposal, hence the whole pacing the relationship idea.
[00:38] knatchwa: yes of course you want them to be available to see a clear picture - you wear a different one for as you proceed through the process, establishing a mind map, to see the whole picture from all perspectives. But to start with only facts then onto emotions and so forth. [00:38] anon: but that again is a problem we have today, people just aren't taking the time to get to know themselves.
[00:39] anon: i think we have a problem of stupid people not necessarily a stupid idea.
[00:40] knatchwa: Take a look at the contents of the book @ http://tinyurl.com/ybpjcth
[00:40] knatchwa: I call it selective ignorance - because that seems more correct then just plain stupid.
[00:40] anon: As far as we've advanced we have also regressed
[00:41] anon: I'll agree on the ignorance
[00:41] knatchwa: The regression is part of the old ideas being rehashed time and time again.
[00:41] anon: but then again, isn't ignorance not knowing and stupidity choosing not to know?
[00:42] knatchwa: yes while selective ignorance is perhaps seeing just outside the black and white constantly being reinforced. To see a glimpse of color to know something is not quite right but choosing to be selective of the truth you see and take the time to understand.
[00:43] anon: it's like driving at night with the lights off, yeah its fun for a while but you just know it's not going to end well.
[00:43] knatchwa: Generally - to many times I have seen that, fortunately not on the freeway but local roads - not thinking just going.
[00:44] anon: do you believe that marriage is being reinforced?
[00:44] anon: in society today?
[00:44] knatchwa: Depending on who you are listening to or what you are reading ye
[00:44] anon: generally?
[00:44] knatchwa: yes even.
[00:45] anon: perhaps this is where we most strongly disagree, i see the opposite.
[00:45] anon: btw i bought the phone. i cant wait, hee hee.
[00:46] knatchwa: fun - so elaborate and define what you mean by opposite.
[00:47] anon: the reinforced idea that marriage is irrelevant to today's relationship scene, it's in movies and tv shows.
[00:48] anon: where do you hear marriage being reinforced?
[00:49] knatchwa: Traditionalists - Of times past, through peers who subscribe the same story if it is not the same reason as it was before. [00:52] anon: are you talking about people being "strongly encouraged" shall we say, to marry after a pregnancy?
[00:53] anon: or people who thought the were in love and married then realized that, well, not so much.
[00:53] knatchwa: Depending on the circumstances that could be one reference, More the idea that it is expected regardless.
[00:54] anon: expected from whom?
[00:54] anon: parents?
[00:54] knatchwa: The second group you described are those who hide behind the front, and become who they really are later.
[00:55] knatchwa: Since we are not talking about the church even though they are the ones with the most level of influence. It would depend on how the parents grew up and in what time frame.
[00:55] knatchwa: Of what ideals were preached from their own sphere of influence.
[00:55] anon: well i'm more interested in specifically who do you see with this mind frame?
[00:56] knatchwa: Those from Philippines, from third world countries. The understanding that no matter what they need to do as long as they get here it will be better. Even locally, as it is not only limited to the scope of the rest of the countries, even our backyard can associate.
[00:57] anon: ah well now we get down to specifics.
[00:57] anon: yes they are more influenced by the church
[00:58] knatchwa: That is the unit of influence few parents can have, and as parents are also a direct result of what they spent there sunday's doing ...
[00:59] knatchwa: why the conversation I was having just before this one was with a Muslim girl, who is also an English teacher in Indonesia.
[01:00] anon: you see this as a negative influence, which i'm guessing you've seen a predominantly negative effect religiously encouraged marriage has the general population, but is this the case?
[01:00] knatchwa: I had asked her the hard questions because I wanted to understand what her views were, to many of those from that country in particular follow a similar idea, of only being able to marry one of the same belief system, not for love but because that is what their parents expect and the parents before them.
[01:01] knatchwa: I know of girls who married and had to drop their aspirations ....
[01:01] knatchwa: soon as they got pregnant because naturally if your married according to their sphere of influence you are supposed to have kids.
[01:02] knatchwa: I hear sometimes cries and screams when walking around the neighborhood, of a girl sounding as if she is crying that she is under attack.
[01:02] knatchwa: I know of at least one person from an old friend who killed herself because she just could not deal with it.
[01:03] knatchwa: I have seen some very grim things, and understood them as such, and often the problem was that the marriage was not what was expected, Perhaps it was love first and later it was abuse.
[01:03] knatchwa: I have known of girls who ended up having kids from two different fathers and now are single mothers trying to do the best they can for the kids they brought into this world.
[01:04] knatchwa: I have known of girls at Natividad when I worked there having kids and working to survive still with the same person, but knowing they could not marry him.
[01:04] knatchwa: I see marriage as a flawed idea because there is not often the happy ending so touted. .
[01:05] anon: well that answers the question i was going to ask.
[01:05] knatchwa: It's the grim reality - the facts perhaps seen when thinking with the white hat.
[01:05] knatchwa: so you see why I don't think marriage is anything but an antiquated idea.
[01:06] anon: but is it really a white hat your looking at this with.
[01:06] knatchwa: Just as from what I see in religion - it is control spread far and wide, implemented through fear through ideas of retribution if ever they step off the path so laid out for them according to those of influence in these organizations.
[01:07] anon: what is the solution? To help them open their minds to get away from those control groups and put on a white hat. To See the Facts As They Are.
[01:07] knatchwa: The White and the red are two in the same group, the facts I see are through examples.
[01:07] anon: if you meet a woman and she loves you and you love her would you simply decide to live together
[01:08] knatchwa: The red hat comes into play when I speak of my heart of the sadness of the lost, but it starts with the white.
[01:08] knatchwa: What is love really, its something to many say, many speak but does it really define anything but words?
[01:09] knatchwa: Love by my interpretation exists but it is not all encompassing as I have loved and lost, or thought I loved but things fell apart. [01:09] anon: okay lets say you have strong feeling for her and her for you what then?
[01:09] knatchwa: I don't know love because it cannot be experienced, love was well defined in the Matrix as only a word.
[01:10] knatchwa: And since love is fleeting how can you really know if the love you think you have for a girl you are staying with would not only just be a passing fad?
[01:10] anon: it is a whim then?
[01:11] knatchwa: Then you see where it goes but looking at it objectively you cannot say then she must be the one simply because there are strong feelings.
[01:11] knatchwa: At the moment ...
[01:11] anon: are we having a conversation?
[01:12] knatchwa: yes you asked a question I answered - a conversation is a flow of information going both ways, though I tend to elaborate on statements.
[01:12] anon: ah okay so you believe love is a whim then true?
[01:13] anon: desire, fleeting?
[01:13] knatchwa: It is a feeling that seems appropriate then but not the end all to all things.
[01:14] anon: no one can claim it so, but would you say not worthwhile at all?
[01:15] knatchwa: At the time surely, but you never know - it is when it becomes a conscious choice, or truly when you truly want to bring that seed to fruition but you can never know. Love is a nice thing at the time so certainly it is worthwhile but I don't think anyone should give up their life for a word.
[01:16] knatchwa: What of your views - do you see love as only a temporary thing or do you see it as the answer?
[01:16] anon: the answer to what?
[01:16] knatchwa: If the same questions you have asked, were also asked of you how would you respond? .
[01:21] anon: Love is a good and worthwhile endeavor as is marriage, ultimately however it is not the feeling or the idea of commitment that i would defend it is the connection to someone that over a long and tested relationship that i would say is important that gives those ideas any credence
[01:25] knatchwa: Something that lasts for more then a couple of years, okay I can see how that makes sense, as something that is built up over time, but yet I still question even if someone was with someone for years before the step was taken to put a ring on her finger, you think in that long and tested relationship that you can be absolutely sure a marriage will last? And how can you be sure as with time people change, how can you know what may be in the future when you only know the present?
[01:27] knatchwa: I guess the point being how can anyone be sure when evidence as seen through life says otherwise. It's not that I am not willing to try it but it is much harder to trust and truly know love if past has been as harsh a teacher as it sometimes can be.
[01:34] anon: can you be sure, of course not but it makes that trial period that much more important to see the direction of growth in a person, to see the flaws in a person, i would say that in sane, well rounded individuals that a relationship is the responsibility both that the failure of that relationship would be the fault of both but so too would the success of that relationship, hence a commitment by both individuals, while not guaranteeing success would greatly increase the chances of it, otherwise there is complacency and corrosion, it takes work, and that too is not taught enough today. And of course it takes some courage, to get past the fears of what has or may happen and actively seek and create a positive future.
[01:39] anon: well my friend it has been an interesting chat, and while i know you appreciate my insight i know you have definite negative feelings towards the whole affair, but hopefully I've managed to impress upon you the idea that it's not necessarily all bad. I'm starting to get pretty sleepy now so I'll say goodnight to you sir.
[01:39] knatchwa: Alright my friend take care I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and will take the points made into consideration as I move toward the future.
[01:40] anon: interesting book by the way.
[01:40] knatchwa: And yes it is often difficult to see the light when you seem enveloped by the dark but it is there just a matter of looking above and making changes.
[01:40] knatchwa: A worthwhile read, I borrowed the one I have from the local library.
[01:40] anon: but again goodnight.
[01:40] knatchwa: Goodnight.
An explorer of new mediums, a 